Also, I was surprised that you didn’t mention “Only Love” from the episode Touched. I love that song and the music and lyrics are so fitting for that moment.

Finally, when I hear “Good Bye To You” at the end of Tabula Rasa as Buffy and Spike make out, I always think that the song is also about Buffy saying good bye to her old self and her old, pre death, way of being.

I must have been blind!

For example Buffy being able to grab a snap of the demon on her iPhone, tweet it to Giles
(who am I kidding), Willow, who would post on Facebook / do a Google image search etc.
By the time Buffy got back to the library they would be all done.

Buffy would potentially have millions of online scoobies who could research for her.
If they were global enough they could “follow the sun” to give her a 24x7x365 research team…

However the episodes would be a lot less fun, imagine all those Xander research scenes we
would lose…

Andy

Does anyone else think that was weird?

I thought it was interesting to hear about ‘what was Buffy hearing’ as it was unlikely that she heard the true story. I had never thought about that before.

Did Keri Russell perhaps also audition for Inara or something?

I wanted to let you know that I positively LOVED the ep that you did on Wesley.

He’s one of my favorite characters, and i love how you addressed how much he grew and really evolved between his beginnings on Buffy and his so, terribly, terribly, still makes me want to cry, end on Angel.

All for now,

Keep up the good work.

-Kate

I am not a Riliey Fan and also tend to skip this episode if I re-watch the series (or choice episodes from it). This is also my worse episode of Buffy.

It was also due to him that I started reading fanfic and this was the first podcast I listened to as it come up in a google search and now I am hooked!!

There is a fanfic story can’t remember the site where it says what would have happened if she had let the demon kills them all in the cellar.

I agree if she had have been there that long she would have looked rough!

Its one of those cut lighter episodes that don’t really happen that often after this series.

Also? thanks for the opportunity. I had fun.

So now, I am going to subscribe to Potential Cast, because the idea of introducing people new to Buffy and getting their thoughts on episodes is very interesting to me. I had a thought years ago to do the same with my sister and Star Trek Deep Space Nine, but it never came to be.

Also, there was a podcast that did every since buffy episode in review, I think it was called Buff Cast? It was done by two guys but they finished it years ago so I’m not sure if you can download it in archive or not.

Wow, this comment is making me realize just how long I have been listening to podcast…. yikes

I’ll just put my vote in about the out-of-control rose being due to the chaos-worshipping Ethan Rayne spreading chaotic magicks about the town…

If you don’t care about the off-screen stuff when it comes to the Spike-getting-his-soul-back, then at least take notice what it is said on screen. On the “Angel” episode “Destiny”, Spike clearly states how he “fought for his soul”. So if you don’t care what’s on the script or what the writers say, then at least care what the character itself says! If you don’t, then you’ve only created a kind of a fanfiction world for you. Which is fine, so long as you keep the canon and the fanfiction separate.

Oh and I hate what they did with Spike’s character too. From season 5 on, he had _NOTHING_ to do except obsess over Buffy. Every single thing he did was related to his obsession with Buffy. It got really boring in season 5, but then they went ahead and did two more seasons with Spike having no other material than his relationship with Buffy. Plus he was definitely overused in season 7.

But in fact I like Spike in Angel season 5. There he has more varied material and he isn’t overused. Season 5 of Angel is the perfect example of how to handle a character like Spike.

The only person they had to fall back on all of this was Angel… who wasn’t overflowing with thank yous when he came back from hell, but was grateful.

There wasn’t much significant character growth. Because he was basically the same after he got a soul. And it doesn’t seem to bother anyone that he isn’t grown enough to take responsibility for the things he did. Instead he lays the blame at Angels feet who had nothing to do with him turning into a monster. He is also still proudly wearing the black duster he stripped off a woman he killed. Like he sais ‘It’s my second skin. It’s who I am.’

Not everyone loves Spike. I have issues with the character starting back in S4. Not only did Joss screw up his own mythology because he loved JM/Spike so much but he made every other character look like an idiot because of it.

But hey we are all entitled to our own opinions. Some like his story. Others don’t.

So by saying that you can’t buy that he did go to find his soul, you are also saying you don’t buy the rest of the series in regards to that character. There is a lot more that he says after this event that counteracts the idea he was only going for his chip, why doesn’t that dialog and expression hold as much weight?

But again read the article that has been mentioned twice in this post (thanks Andy Gavin for reposting the link) please, it looks at all of the things you all mention (like his SPECIFIC dialog and tone of voice).

There’s also a recent article from some discussion with Joss during his trip to Australia.

http://www.scifitv.com.au/Blog/2010/08/joss-whedon-says-serenity-was-firefly-season-2/

“Joss also spoke about Spike, who he felt ultimately became the most fully developed character in the Whedonverse, coming from the lowest rung in Season Six (when he forced himself on Buffy) to someone who literally earned his own soul, as opposed to Angel, “who had a soul thrust upon him for a hundred years and moped about it.”

Thanks to all of you for your awesome comments, and I’m always excited when my episodes get people motivated to say something.

CaptMurdock I hope part 2 satisfied your Willow concerns, and rest assured, there’s plenty of discussion on other characters in episodes coming up. This was just part one of a full discussion, and Kate and I wound up talking about Spike earlier pretty much at random. My lovely editor just picked a spot that made sense to stop at for timing’s sake.

Nothing indicated that Spike wanted to get his soul. Definitely didn’t show in JM’s face. Actually it looked like evil Spike to me. Most important to me is something that was said twice in the cave scenes. About Spike ‘wanting to be what he was’/'returned to his former self’. Spike was NEVER a vampire with a soul. He only has 2 former selfs. Human William and chip-less vampire Spike.

Also have to agree with CaptMurdock on the overuse of Spike. BTVS pretty much became STV (Spike The Vampire) and then AtS turned into StS. And everybody was pushed into the background for him.

As for Willow, yes we get into a lot of Willow in the second half, in fact she’s the main portion of the second-half.

I’m sorry that you saw the murder of Tara as a plot device. But it was, any big change by a character in a work of fiction is.

Don’t get m wrong, I loved Tara, especially in S6, she grew so much, we learned a lot more about her, and it was heartbreaking to see her die.

I do apologize if some of the conclusions “soured” you, but I’m somewhat glad it pushed your buttons, because it would be a little boring if everyone agreed on everything all the time.

All I can say is check out Pt 2,

Have Fun,

-Kate

Another interesting question is what will happen to Dawn at the end of her life. Will the Key revert back to its original form? Will Dawn go to an afterlife? Does she have a soul? Is it the Key’s soul or a separate soul? (Is the Key sentient?) Can Dawn even die? Perhaps she is immortal. (And of course there are the obvious Key-specific questions, such as what is it, who made it and why?) I haven’t read the Season 8 comics yet, so I suppose it’s possible some of these questions were addressed after this episode came out.

And then, you spend fully half of this podcast on Spike, relegating Willow to Part Two. I would hope that you spend at least as much time on her character development (or degradation, I should say)… except that I have a hard time caring even about one who used to be my favorite character. I could tolerate her turning to the Dark Side with her delving into power, but the ham-handed magic-as-drugs metaphor ruined the whole storyline for me.

And the outright murder of Tara, in effect reducing this wonderful character to a plot device, was the final straw. I used to love BtVS, which is why I subscribe to Happyland. But the conclusion of Season Six irrevocably soured me on this, and every other Joss Whedon show.

Please don’t take this as criticism of your podcast. I find it very entertaining. You just inadvertently pushed several of my buttons. Ciao.

A twist, is something where you are expecting ending “A” but when you go back and re-watch, it’s completely possible for the ending to be “B”

If that makes any sense.

What Spike was saying, and how he said it, left no indication that he was looking for his soul.

As i mentioned in the cast, I knew I would not be popular with this idea, but based on what they showed me, it’s the one of the only conclusions I could come up with.

You can think i’m wrong forever, that doesn’t mean I agree.

But thanks for the comment, I always like a good debate

-kate

The following essay contains quotes from the writers verifying Spike’s actual intentions plus analysis of his dialogue with Clem prior to his departure for Africa: http://www.allaboutspike.com/africa.html

Eat. Sleep. Buffy.

Izzy
Fresno, Ca

Eat. Sleep. Buffy.

Izzy
Fresno, Ca

i work at mcdonal’s for 3 years is no that bad well in mexico is no that boring,a lot more costumers a lot more believe me!!!

i saw the SMG and JM bloopers always i see that part of the episode i remember her laughing

thats it sorry if i have typos or wherever my inglish is no that good

kip qthe good work comeing
and you’r awesome

ps : you ha a mexicoan fan

bere
tx

—Tony

I wanted to let you know how much I enjoy “HappyLand” especially the episode on “Fool for Love” which is one of my personal favorite episodes. But more about that later.

My “How I got into Buffy” story goes like this:

It was March 1997 (I get to count myself one of the lucky ones who has been with ‘Buffy’ from all the way back to the beginning) and I was in High School and one icky Saturday afternoon, I was terribly bored (March, in Michigan has the tendency of being cold, wet, snowy and windy all at the same time) and on TV they were showing “Buffy the Vampire Slayer”.

Now I had been a fan of the movie (yeah I know) since I was about 13 or so, cheesy or not, it’s a fun premise.

So I flipped it on. “This isn’t right” I was watching it for a second when my Mom came in and mentioned that she had heard that they were making a Buffy show, so we sat down and watched “Welcome to the Hell Mouth” and “The Harvest” together”

Apparently the affiliate of the WB that we had was new (it just being aired in our area that previous fall) they were showing new content again on Saturdays to build viewers for new shows, like Buffy.

So immediately I loved it. “This is the best thing to come along in a long, long time! They really seem to have fairly normal teenage personas, and hey wow, that Angel guy is hot!! I have got to keep watching this!!!”

So when “Witch” came on the next week, I watched with eager anticipation.

And I don’t remember seeing another episode until “Graduation Day”

What happened? Life happened. I forgot that the reason that I didn’t know about a Buffy show was that I was too busy for reading anything that wasn’t academically relevant, or have the time to spend 1 hour a week watching TV. (Seriously between classes, swimming, music, honor’s society etc I was booked solid)

So I got re-introduced to Buffy by one of my best friends in college, where I don’t think I ever missed another broadcast until it went off the air. I think I even re-arranged some college classes around it.

I keep getting to chance to introduce others to Buffy, like my old college roommate, and I’m just overjoyed when they end up loving it, because come on, really, who wouldn’t?

The hardest part, I would have to say is getting people past the title “Buffy? you mean that wierd show about vampires?” I swear satire is lost on so many people.

Anyway, that’s pretty much how I got into Buffy.

Also, I was wondering if you ever did a show on the Buffy/Angel Crossover episodes, and how most of them were pretty much useless, with the exception for Fool for Love/Darla, because I think that would be interesting.

Thanks,

-kate

*ahem*

Great episode, loved the discussion… even if it’s all about Spike *cough*.

As for emailing me? There is a link on the site, and the email is easy to remember, upsidedownhappyland at gmail.com.

Thanks for the comment!

I am a new listener to “Happyland” and I’m slowly getting caught up with casts, and I think this might be the first cast that I heard right after it was uploaded. (yay)

I would have to put my “two-cents” in on the fact that I watched most of Buffy as it was Broadcast, but I enjoy the later seasons better.

Season Six is probably my favorite, right behind season 2&3 (its a tie right now) I liked it mainly because you saw the characters change, and so many shows don’t allow characters to change more than one episode, and then it’s back as if nothing ever happened.

I think that is one of the reasons why I like Buffy is that actions have consequences, and they are things that people remember later on. (even if its the simple “remember the time when we turned into our costumes?” ((ahh Ethan Rayne)))

I don’t have the time here, but if you let me know where to find your email, i would like to send you my conversion story.

-Kate

Eagerly awaiting the next episode!!

I’m watching the series backwards now. I have a couple more episodes of Season 7 to go, then I’m going to go back to 6. I remember starting over and getting through some of Season 3 but forgot where I left off.

Thanks for continuing to do the show, I subscribed on iTunes and will check out some of your older episodes while waiting for new ones.

I acctually avoid any fic’s that are by her because of this, but occasonally I’ll start a fic and not relize Kate wrote it until the bashing starts.

I’ve often commented to her that she should just leave them out of her fic’s if she hates them so much, and her fic’s would be steller and not be known as bashers. but hey its her fic.

Your Spander discussion reminded me of this very amusing video. I know you’ll enjoy it as much as I did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHi2qnar2-I&feature=related

(yes, okay, slightly creepy, but still sexy).

As an English Major, I find myself wanting to watch the episodes in advance to listening to the podcast and then find myslef rewatching them afterward. You’ve brought a new light to my favorite show.

I really agreed with a lot of the points that you made about Harm and feel justified in saying that I also hope she makes an appearance in the Angel Season 6 comics.

Tabz

Did you ask the actors how old they thought their kids should be before they can watch, the adult scenes in Buffy/Angel?

To get more of my podcasts, you can subscribe through iTunes, or use the rss feed to subscribe through another podcatcher (like Juice), or you could simply scroll down and listen to them all through the player at the bottom of the page or grab them from the individual posts.

Just leave me a comment or an email, if you have any suggestions, I’d love to hear them!

chupachica.blogspot.com

Thanks!
K

I think that perhaps you give a bit too much weight to the Initiative storyline when assessing S4, AthenaMuze, since while it is a bad storyline, it takes up fewer episodes than any other (full) season’s storyline, and therefore most of the season consists of oftentimes very good standalone episodes. The fact that the season ends with “Restless” instead of “Primeval” shows that in the end the Initiative wasn’t really a very important part of the season anyway.

But that’s just my opinion as a S4 fan

Tabz, James and Jason, very entertaining – as usual.
Super show… who cares how long they run for?

I really like Rafa’s story. It’s great how a show can really impact on a person in a positive way. William Shatner said before making the Star Trek movies, that his best fan story was about a group of vets in Vietnam, who used to talk about their favourite episodes and credited it with helping keep them sane in the jungle. Just as BTVS helped inspire Rafa to overcome a crisis and also Allison from episode 9 after surviving Katrina and having to start alone at a new college.

I was also super excited that you paid some attention to one of my favorite episodes “Earshot.” I got into making buffy music vids awhile ago, and the first one I did (also the best one) was an episodic look at “Earshot.”

http://youtube.com/watch?v=pqW6LhsVtxs

Thanks for podcasting. I’ve been bit by the podcast bug and hope to get something going real soon. So thanks. Keep it up, and I can’t wait for the next cast.

Thought I’d give some comment-love, five comments hardly seems fair when I often help the Deadpan score 1000+ in a week…

I’ll be back later with less nonsense…

There also speculation on if she was a vengence demon as Cecily.

And Jason is so very awesome, Thanks again for your amazing contributions!

didnt they realise after they cast kahli as halfrek that some people would notice she was cecily so they gave her the little “william?” line? i think thats what it was…

Spike was sired in 1880 and the scene with Halfreck and Anya at the dinner table was at the beginning of the Russian Revolution, which was 1905.

In fact that scene was originally supposed to take place in the Renaissance or some other earlier time, but was changed when they realized that Halfreck wasn’t alive back then.

Great show btw. It was fun listening to you two have so much fun, and Jason, if you do a podcast, I will *so* be listening.

Halfreck and Spike knew each other when they were both human. Halfreck was Cecily, the woman William wrote poetry (effulgent)about and who rejected him and broke his heart. She obviously had a talent for inflicting pain and that is probably why she became a vengeance demon.

Thank you! I’m glad you enjoyed it!
As for the speaking of SMG (and the rest really), I think we made a point to mention how difficult her stuff was. Remember, we were just offering up opinions from a more musical standpoint. Points to her for her hard work and great overall show, I don’t think anyone would say those were in question.

Also that is a very interesting point about Willow, I hadn’t thought of it! However, since we were just looking at the music this go, the character motivations were not in question, and it is well known that Aly asked not to sing.

I know, I hang my head in shame over the David Fury thing. I should have known sooner. I blanked.

Hee on the Dawn bit…

Finally… You are on! Just send me your HIGitB story and be ready to put something together soon and I’m totally up for it. But until I have a way to contact you, it’ll be up to you to send me that email. If you already have, then you should see something from me soon.

You asked if I would write a “How I got into Buffy, piece.” I will probably do that some other time, but I will have to think about it a little.

Let me also say that I listen to your podcast while I am cleaning house or filing away notes and articles for the book I am working on. I also listen to other Buffy podcasts. But for some reason it is yours that I feel most inspired by, and I don’t know why. As far as intellectual thought “Buffycast” is very good, and it is too bad that the guy in charge does not seem to be working anymore. But there is something about the quality of your voice, that opens up to sympathy and empathy, and makes it easy to listen to you. I say this to encourage you I just want to hear more from you, and encourage you to keep on going, with this podcast, because I enjoy you and it very much.

I will send you a longer version of this post by email.

Jerry

Also I recently sent you my How I Got Into Buffy story. I didn’t really appreciate how much the show made a difference in me until I sat down to write it (at work, while constantly flipping over to work e-mail when someone walked by my desk).

I just finished to listening to Episode 4 and I have to say it is very enjoyable.

I want to confirm something you said in your podcast, but offer a complimentary explanation. Among the BtVS fans I know, those who like the later seasons watched the show on DVD for the first time and those who like the earlier seasons watched the show on television. This is consistent among the ten or so BtVS fans I know.

Let me say that I am 47 and don’t own a television. (I haven’t owned a t.v. for about 17 years.) I watch my television on my computer when it comes out on DVD.

My girlfriend was a BtVS fan. She had Buffy DVDs for Season 2. I enjoyed the show and sought out, and eventually bought, the other six seasons. It was a mark for me of how television had changed since I gave up my television, that a show such as this, with Dickensian character development, and cinematic mise-en-scene and photography, could exist on television.

My girlfriend who watched the show as it appeared on television prefers the earlier season; I prefer the later seasons. (Season 6 with all of its “mistakes”, some of which, I believe, Whedon would not have allowed if he had been paying full attention, look closely at the editing in “Afterlife” for example.) The reason I believe this is true is because of “Arc.”

Those who watch the shows on DVD end up watching the seasons as if they were one piece of a long novel, that takes a few days to finish. The latter seasons are more embedded in season long narrative arcs and seven season long character arcs. Thus we watch the shows in a way that is very similar to reading a Dickens novel, and see more in the seasons that have less “one-off” shows and more character development and season narrative arc. The latter seasons are simply stronger on this, with Season 6 being the strongest “narrative arc” season.

I would go further. What those of us saw the show first on DVD, like about the earlier seasons are the episodes that show character development and change. Thus an episode such as “I Only Have Eyes for You” (S2E19)becomes more than a “monster of a week” episode, but a crucial episode in the revelation of the faults in Buffy’s character, and how she struggles to overcome them… but can’t.

There is another problem with the later seasons, that might strike some people on an unconscious level, but only cinephiles on a conscious level. The acting is better but the directing and editing really goes up and down in a dreadful way. Such elementary mistakes are made like not setting up the shots properly, crossing the axis of action, lack of eye-line match, not paying attention to how long a shot should last, etc. I expect these problems with normal television. (To avoid such problems everyday “bad” television reverts to very simple shot-reverse-shot mechanics.) But I don’t expect this from a Joss Whedon series.

I blame Marti Noxon, in this respect. I think that she was a great head-writer but not a great “film-maker”. (Some don’t seem to grant her even this much, but when she was second in command to Joss she wrote great episodes, and when she was able to simply act as “head writer” she guided the seasons brilliantly.) When Whedon was paying full attention to BtVS such simple cinematic mistakes did not occur, because Whedon is a television producer who has the heart and mind of a great film maker (Orson Welles, Hitchcock, Scorsese). To see this you only have to look at the episodes Whedon directed. (For instance “Who Are You?” in Season Four. Just watch the episode and pay attention to where Whedon positions his camera and when he cuts a shot; or look at the very Goddard-like jump-cuts in the scene between Riley and Faith-in-Buffy’s-Body.)

Episode to episode Season’s 6 and 7 are not a smooth ride. Even the best episodes are sometimes confused in the way they use the camera, while some episodes have great directors and come off perfectly. But those of us who first watched the latter seasons on DVD are able to see the season as a whole and not get lost in the forest of missteps.